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My hatred and loathing grows - MegaZone's Safety Valve
The Ramblings of a Damaged Mind
zonereyrie
zonereyrie
My hatred and loathing grows
Every time I have to do something new for the web, and I think I've reached the bottom of the seething pit of hatred and loathing I have for IE6, I find there is yet another circle of hell to explore. Even using Dean Edwards' patch library cannot salve my burning hatred. Things that should be easy, and that are easy in a real browser, are made difficult by IE's lack of, or incorrect, standards support. And things that are tricky in other browsers become so maddening I feel I'd be better off chatting face to face, so to speak, with a Shoggoth. And half the time when I find the magic combination of XHTML and CSS that makes it work, it still doesn't make any motherfucking sense! The only way to make shit work in IE is to not be sane! If you try to do things in a what that makes sense you're doomed! It makes me want to reach into my monitor and rip out IE's guts until I find the back-asswards code that otherwise stupidly pointless code satisfies enough to allow IE to behave, well, mostly. I'm screaming at an insensate object! WHAT DO YOU WANT? MY SOUL?! TAKE IT! JUST WORK DAMN YOU!! *seethe*

I really, really hate Internet Explorer, quite a lot.

I just wanted to share.

Thank you, and good night.

Tags: , , , , ,
I am: pissed off pissed off
Current Media: Alanis Morissette: Jagged Little Pill - Right Through You

10 STDOUT || STDIN
Comments
(Deleted comment)
zonereyrie From: zonereyrie Date: February 15th, 2006 03:50 am (UTC) (Direct Link)
Heh - you should arrange for me to be a guest speaker as someone who worked on the web standards, and has been doing web stuff since the very start - and then I can get there and spend the time bashing IE for being utter shite and how only morons think IE6 is any good. That IE has single-handedly retarded the development of advanced web applications simply by sucking so badly, yet having the largest marketshare, so that developers are loathe to do anything that doesn't work well in IE.

Oh, I can go on and on and on...
mindways From: mindways Date: February 15th, 2006 02:48 pm (UTC) (Direct Link)
[Keeps asbestos suit close at hand in case opinion catalyzes another involuntary outburst of firey wrath]

To be honest, when we were doing a front-end compatibility overhaul for our site (broadening the ancient "IE/Netscape"-oriented support; moving to CSS for formatting, etc), we found that *all* of the major browsers had annoying idiosyncracies and subtle differences of interpretation / implementation for web standards. I believe that Opera was actually the most frustrating offender for what we were trying to do; IE came in 2nd or 3rd.

IMO, the biggest problem with IE 6 is that it's been stagnant. At the time it came out (assuming I'm recalling timeframes correctly), its support for web standards was loads better than IE 5's (damning with faint praise, I know) and much like that of other major browsers[*]: very scattershot.

It just hasn't moved much.

[*] = Not counting Mozilla, which did a nice drive towards standards compliance but was "almost done now!"-ware for umpteen gazillion years.

zonereyrie From: zonereyrie Date: February 15th, 2006 09:34 pm (UTC) (Direct Link)
I agree that when it was *new* IE6 wasn't so bad. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it had some of the best support at the time. Netscape 4.79 was crap, and Mozilla was still pre-release at the time since Mozilla 5 was scrapped and they were working on Gecko from scratch. Opera was OK, but not great.

But since then I've found Opera has cleaned up a *lot*, and the newer versions are pretty damn good with standards support. I still don't care from some of the other choices in UI and the like, so I don't use it, but I test with it and rarely have problems. Gecko has become damn fine, and the browsers that use it - Mozilla Suite, Firefox, Seamonkey, Camino, et al - do a great job. Both Opera and Gecko have quirks, but they're not as common as trouble with IE, and they usually come down to looseness in the specifications and I don't have too many problems creating markup and styles that handles it.

Safari I don't get to test with since I don't have a Mac, I still haven't convinced work to get one for that, but I have used Konquerer which is also based on KHTML and it is decent. (I would like to have a Mac to test Safari.) It helps that Mozilla, Opera, and Apple all participate in WHAT-WG and they discuss the implementation specifics to try to bring their browsers into commonality on all the details.

IE, on the other hand, has been utterly stagnant for years. And in high tech and the web that may as well be lifetimes. When IE6 was released it didn't quite support all the standards that existed *then*, and it had some serious bugs (one of the biggest is a completely incorrect handling of cascading OBJECT elements), which MS knew about - and never fixed. And standards don't sit still that long. CSS has evolved with 2.1 (and IE6 didn't even have full CSS1 support, and only small bits of CSS2) and components of CSS3. ECMAScript/JavaScript has advanced. We have SVG, MathML, SMIL, etc - which other browsers have been embracing. While MS neglected IE completely for years. It is, or should be, possible to do cascading menus, pop-ups, etc, without and scripting - just XHTML+CSS. And it works in the other browsers, but not in IE. AJAX applications are harder to do in IE.

Finally, after MS started to lose marketshare, they relented and started working on IE7. Remember, originally there wasn't going to be an IE7, there was just going to be a new IE with Vista, and that's it. I'm glad the market started to turn on them to wake them up. But now I don't trust that they'll continue the work. I fear they'll do one major update, enough to staunch the bleeding, and then pull the resources off of IE again. I look over IE Blog periodically and I think it sounds like they're doing some good work fixing the bugs from IE6 and moving the standards support forward. And the fact is that IS could be a *great* browser, because the people working on it are good, but MS needs to commit resources to it to really make it a leader again, and keep it there.
sleet01 From: sleet01 Date: February 15th, 2006 06:07 am (UTC) (Direct Link)

If you think it's bad now...

Try getting SQL Reporting Services up and running. Try explaining to people _at a legal support company_ why it's both A) really annoying and B) vitally necessary to implement any and all security you can under IIS, because they're giving customers direct TS access to the corporate net, and if you don't manually implement security *in* SRS, who knows what those gormless bastards will do to each other's reports!

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<hah,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Try getting SQL Reporting Services up and running. Try explaining to people _at a legal support company_ why it's both A) really annoying and B) vitally necessary to implement any and all security you can under IIS, because they're giving customers direct TS access to the corporate net, and if you don't manually implement security *in* SRS, who knows what those gormless bastards will do to each other's reports!

<hah, hah, hah> I'm okay...

And then sit through daily meetings where everyone agrees that relying on .Net, C#, and SQL Server is half of what makes your product suck... then witness those self-same devs going off and perpetuating *more* nastiness, "because MS is the industry standard."

I like sharing, this is good. Maybe we should start the next round with, "Hi, my name is %s, and I work with Microsoft products",(myName,)
mercyspeaks From: mercyspeaks Date: February 15th, 2006 11:32 am (UTC) (Direct Link)
At least it's like...free.
7threality From: 7threality Date: February 15th, 2006 02:51 pm (UTC) (Direct Link)
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.
dornbeast From: dornbeast Date: February 15th, 2006 07:01 pm (UTC) (Direct Link)
In that case, Microsoft owes MZ a few hundred hours, minimum.
sleet01 From: sleet01 Date: February 15th, 2006 08:39 pm (UTC) (Direct Link)
The Japanese say, "tada yori takai mono ha nai", which basically means you can't get anything more expensive than something 'free'.
zonereyrie From: zonereyrie Date: February 15th, 2006 09:05 pm (UTC) (Direct Link)
But so are Firefox, Opera, and Safari.

IE is free monetarily, but you pay in pain. :-)

(Unrelated - just nice to hear from you, as it were.)
dornbeast From: dornbeast Date: February 15th, 2006 06:59 pm (UTC) (Direct Link)
And half the time when I find the magic combination of XHTML and CSS that makes it work, it still doesn't make any motherfucking sense! The only way to make shit work in IE is to not be sane!

So, metaphorically speaking, you've met Cthulhu.
10 STDOUT || STDIN